Are we heretics?

Here is a letter we received from someone that we had met some time ago, when we were in another country sharing the teachings of Jesus. We had quite a number of meet-ups with this person, as well as some very long phone calls with him. He was almost going to forsake all, sell his possessions and come live and travel with us, sharing the gospel with the world, but he started to let fear get the better of him. After some time, when we returned to the U.S., he wrote the letter we have typed out below. 

We want to comment on what he has written, but we thought it might be worth letting people read the letter for themselves first to see if they can pick up any continuous theme that shows up throughout the letter. Our comments and observations will be below his letter.

Dear brother,

1).How are you doing? Good I hope. Did you get the last book I sent you? I hope so. I’m sending you an article that I feel relates fairly well to a point I was making in our discussions. It’s about the authority and reliability of the Bible.  Read it and let me know what you think.

2).By the way, I’ve been thinking over the doctrine you guys have, that a person is born again by the teachings of Jesus. After reading the letters of Romans, Galatians, Ephesians, Philippians etc, I have had to conclude that your stand on that issue is a dangerous heresy. I know you will probably rank me along side the rest of the “apostate church,” but I must stand by the Bible…all of it.

3).Paul said that what he writes was received from Jesus by special revelation. (Galatians 1:12). So to reject it because what he says seems to contradict Jesus is wrong.  There is a principle of hermeneutics called the law of non-contraction. I’m sure you know what that means. Therefore, what Paul said must (as well as all the biblical writers) line up with, and agree with Jesus’ own words. It’s true, Jesus said some things that are hard to understand, and it seems logical to assume that we must then go to the rest of the inspired writers for divine commentary.

4).We are not saved by obedience to Jesus’ commands; the whole Old Testament sacrificial system shows us the utter inability of man to save himself. We are saved by grace through faith. It is the blood of Christ which alone satisfied God’s fierce wrath against sin that saves us. By believing that Christ died for our sins and was raised for our justification, we receive grace, mercy and peace from God. It is then this grace which enables us to walk as He walked.  This is the gospel, and I cannot support your version of the gospel any longer.

I do you count you as a brother, and I wish you well in the future. It would be nice to keep in contact if you’re ever in this country again.

Ok..did you notice anything in particular about the theme & content of his letter?

In case you are wondering what we might be getting at, we’ll spell it out for you. Here goes!(For the sake of the reader, we have numbered each paragraph in the letter above. There are 4 paragraphs we will be dealing with in our response. Also, for easier reading, we’ll say the guy’s name who wrote the letter is Dave from this point on). 

In his first paragraph, Dave offers greetings and mentions a book he sent us, which we greatly appreciated. He also mentions an article which seeks to prove the reliability of the Bible and its authority. This is where we started to part ways, theologically speaking. We don’t deny the inspiration of the Old and New Testaments. That has never been an issue for us. However, we consider Jesus (and His teachings) to be the Word of God (John 1:1 & Revelation 19:13) and not the Bible. This perspective puts us at odds with about 99.99% of professing Christians and churches. 

It’s extremely important for people to see why this perspective is so fundamental to our message. The simple fact is that most professing Christians view the Bible as “the word of God” and they then say that all of the words in the bible are of equal importance. This is absolutely absurd! Have you ever seen a bible with the words of Jesus in red print, which highlights this point? Anyway, let’s get back to Dave’s letter. 

Now let us look at paragraph #2. Dave mentions our “doctrine” of being born-again by the teachings of Jesus. Yep…we ARE guilty as charged of believing that! (See John 6:63 & 1 Peter 1:22-23). You may have noticed that Dave did not challenge our perspective with Jesus’ own words, but rather chose several letters from the apostle Paul to disregard the clear teachings of Jesus recorded in the 4 Gospels. Couldn’t he refute our position by looking at Jesus’ own words? Why did he look at the letters of Paul instead? Hmmmmmm….This is exactly what most of the churchy doctrines are based on…not Jesus’ teachings, but the letters of Paul and the rest of the bible instead. That is why it is so important for them to say (and teach) that Jesus’ words are equal with any other words in the bible. But the simple, profound question remains: Did Jesus teach that He was just another prophet? Did Jesus teach that His words were equal to anyone else in the biblical texts? Looks like a pretty easy answer: NO.

Let’s look at paragraph #3 now. It seems rational and logical to many to look to the rest of the bible to see if other writers can add some “divine commentary” to the clear teachings of Jesus. however, what tends to happen 9 times out of 10 is that Jesus’ words are filtered through other writers of the bible, in particular the apostle Paul’s writings. In short, if Jesus’ teachings about obedience to Him is closely tied in with our salvation, most will turn to Paul’s letters to try and make sense of Jesus’ radical commands. More often than not, Paul’s letters are used to nullify Jesus’ own words/teachings. Suppose we only had the words of Jesus as recorded in the 4 gospels to determine who was following Christ and who had turned aside to convenient doctrines (such as: we are saved by grace through faith verses like Ephesians 2:8-9) and we then relegate Jesus’ clear and direct commands for His followers as secondary to our means of salvation.  Is this what following Jesus looks like? The apostle Paul was a great guy, but he was a fallible human being, just like the rest of us. Most people are too steeped in churchy tradition to see the logic here, but I pray that those who are reading this can see beyond the numerous doctrines in their particular church, and begin to see that Jesus is the standard by which we judge all other teachings.  

Ok…on to the last paragraph…#4. If we are saved by “grace through faith” we have to ask: faith in What? Or better yet, faith in WHOM? We believe it is through faith in Jesus (and His words) so we TRY to follow His teachings above all others to the best of our ability. We fail at meeting His perfect standard, but we trust in His grace and mercy to make up for our sinful nature. It’s simple: we ARE saved by obedience (Luke 6:46; John 14:15,21,23-24; John 15:10) so our lives are spent TRYING to follow Him. Anyone who says we should stop TRYING to obey Jesus is the real heretic. 

 

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About livewithoutlovingmoney

Welcome to the intersection of economics & and love! We are Christians who are disgusted with the money system worship of the Churches. We call it "Churchianity" and nothing could be further from what Jesus Christ taught than what is commonly preached in most churches around the world. His profoundly revolutionary and unrivaled teachings about love, if practiced, open our eyes to the matrix of greed that he came to free us from. Read more to discover the message that centuries of church dogma & doctrine have attempted to hide from you.
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20 Responses to Are we heretics?

  1. Eliza says:

    Hi I read your post and your question and I wanted to share this post that I hope gives you some insight. God bless you:)

    https://holdingforthhisword.wordpress.com/2013/08/03/gods-glorious-grace/

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    • Hi Eliza,

      Thanks for taking the time to read what we have shared in the post “Are We Heretics.”

      We read your blog post “God’s Glorious Grace” but have not had the time (yet) to read more of your blog.

      We hope you can understand that we were being facetious by even asking the question in the title of our post. We are not exactly sure what you might have hoped to open our eyes to when you sent us a link to your post. You see, most people who call themselves christians like to talk about the Bible almost as if were Jesus Himself! When the gospel of John states that “the Word became flesh and dwelt among us,” we can easily see that John is calling Jesus “the Word,” not the bible.

      We can’t really see that you have said anything different than what our friend said in his letter when he said we were heretics. You have, just like him, pointed us to the epistles of other writers of the new testament, mostly the apostle Pauls’ epistles. The entire gist of our post was simply asking why so many christians basically ignore the gospels (Matthew, Mark, Luke, & John)?

      Let’s be absolutely clear: Jesus’ teachings are recorded in Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John, which are called “the gospels.” We believe the good news that Jesus came to die for sinners, which we all are. He asks us to enter into a love-obedience relationship with Him. (See John 14:15-24). Notice how Jesus ties in our obedience to His teachings as a sort of “test” to show our love for Him. That may sound very heretical to most modern day christians, but if it rubs any of us the wrong way, maybe we should take another look at the teachings of the One who called Himself the Light of the World & the WAY, the TRUTH, and the LIFE.

      15“If you love Me, you will keep My commandments. 16“I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may be with you forever; 17that is the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not see Him or know Him, but you know Him because He abides with you and will be in you.

      18“I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you. 19“After a little while the world will no longer see Me, but you will see Me; because I live, you will live also. 20“In that day you will know that I am in My Father, and you in Me, and I in you. 21“He who has My commandments and keeps them is the one who loves Me; and he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and will disclose Myself to him.” 22 Judas (not Iscariot) said to Him, “Lord, what then has happened that You are going to disclose Yourself to us and not to the world?” 23 Jesus answered and said to him, “If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our abode with him. 24“He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine, but the Father’s who sent Me.

      25“These things I have spoken to you while abiding with you. 26“But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you. 27“Peace I leave with you; My peace I give to you; not as the world gives do I give to you. Do not let your heart be troubled, nor let it be fearful. 28“You heard that I said to you, ‘I go away, and I will come to you.’ If you loved Me, you would have rejoiced because I go to the Father, for the Father is greater than I. 29“Now I have told you before it happens, so that when it happens, you may believe. 30“I will not speak much more with you, for the ruler of the world is coming, and he has nothing in Me; 31 but so that the world may know that I love the Father, I do exactly as the Father commanded Me. Get up, let us go from here.

      Jesus also says elsewhere that the Words HE speaks are spirit and life. (John 6:63). Notice what Peter says shortly after Jesus made that statement:

      67 So Jesus said to the twelve, “You do not want to go away also, do you?” 68 Simon Peter answered Him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? YOU have words of eternal life.

      In another place, Jesus challenges the Jewish understanding of scripture in His day: 39“You search the Scriptures because you think that in THEM you have eternal life; it is these that testify about Me; 40 and you are unwilling to come to Me so that you may have life.

      I would like to hear what you think about what I have shared here. I have to leave it there for now, but eagerly await your feedback. (and anyone else who wants to enter into this discussion).

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  2. Eliza says:

    Thank you for the quick response and the desire to hear back from me. I appreciate it!

    I love the Scriptures that you shared. I love reading the gospels and witnessing Jesus and His glorious work done for the Father recorded for us there by His apostles whom He chose and empowered for the task by the Holy Spirit. I love the Scriptures that He has given to us in the epistles by His Holy Spirit so we can know what He did for us and why He did it, and then being His and living for His glory we can know how to live to please Him and our Heavenly Father. I love the Old Testament Scriptures given to us by Jesus Christ through the Holy Spirit which bear witness of His work among His people, the Jews, and the powerful prophecies foretelling the truth about Jesus Christ coming to this earth, to be the sin bearing Savior, risen Lord and returning triumphant ruling Lord God Almighty. I love the Lord Jesus Christ opening the minds of His disciples to understand the prophecies written concerning Himself in the Old Testament.

    And they said one to another, Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures? And they rose up the same hour, and returned to Jerusalem, and found the eleven gathered together, and them that were with them, Saying, The Lord is risen indeed, and hath appeared to Simon. And they told what things were done in the way, and how he was known of them in breaking of bread. And as they thus spake, Jesus himself stood in the midst of them, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you. But they were terrified and affrighted, and supposed that they had seen a spirit. And he said unto them, Why are ye troubled? and why do thoughts arise in your hearts? Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have. And when he had thus spoken, he shewed them his hands and his feet. And while they yet believed not for joy, and wondered, he said unto them, Have ye here any meat? And they gave him a piece of a broiled fish, and of an honeycomb. And he took it, and did eat before them. And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me. Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures, And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day: And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. And ye are witnesses of these things. And, behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you: but tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be endued with power from on high. And he led them out as far as to Bethany, and he lifted up his hands, and blessed them. Luke 24:32-50

    I love what Peter, Christ’s apostle, promised the Holy Spirit along with His other apostles wrote concerning the Scriptures, both the Old Testament and the New Testament, also known as the Bible, in 2 Peter chapters one and three.

    Moreover I will endeavor that ye may be able after my decease to have these things always in remembrance. For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty. For he received from God the Father honor and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. And this voice which came from heaven we heard, when we were with him in the holy mount. We have also a more sure word of prophecy; where unto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts: Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost. 2 Peter 1:15-21

    Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwells righteousness. Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless. And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction. Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own steadfastness. But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen. 2 Peter 3:11-18

    I love the Lord Jesus Christ for saving me, giving me His Holy Spirit, and leaving His Testimony, the Holy Scriptures, He uses to teach me about Him and His glorious love for us, His awesome salvation, and leaves His Testimony so that we will not be led astray into sin or deceived by false teachers.

    But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived. But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them; And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.
    2 Timothy 3:13-17

    Here is my testimony of meeting my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and His awesome work in my life. God bless you:)

    https://holdingforthhisword.wordpress.com/2013/11/01/dichotomies/

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  3. Hi Eliza,

    Thanks for responding as well.

    As my last response to you focused on Jesus’ teachings about love and obedience to His commands, I often tend to wonder how most christians apply His commands in their everyday lives.

    For example, in the Sermon on the Mount, Jesus says:

    …14″For if you forgive others for their transgressions, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. 15″But if you do not forgive others, then your Father will not forgive your transgressions. (Matthew 6:14-15).

    Do you think our salvation would be at all dependent on our forgiveness of others, as it appears He is saying here?

    This next verse may be a little easier to interpret:

    …8″But do not be called Rabbi; for One is your Teacher, and you are all brothers. 9″Do not call anyone on earth your father; for One is your Father, He who is in heaven. 10″Do not be called leaders; for One is your Leader, that is, Christ.…(Matthew 23:8-10)

    If you notice, Jesus tells us not to call ANYONE on earth our father…what if we took Him at face value and did not call any priest “father”, or, to go one step further, what if we chose to not even call our earthly father “dad” or father? I know that may sound strange, but this seems like one of the easiest commands of Jesus. Most christians will say it is fine for us, as adults, to call our earthly fathers “dad”, “daddy” or “father.”

    We would be interested in your answer to this command of Jesus.

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  4. Eliza says:

    Jesus Christ Himself acknowledged our earthly relationships with our parents.

    21 Now brother will deliver up brother to death, and a father his child; and children will rise up against parents and cause them to be put to death. Matthew 10:21

    37 He who loves father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me. And he who loves son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me. Matthew 10:37

    It is always important to look at the verses in the context of the passage and then in the context of the Bible to understand the meaning of the verses. The biblical term for this is rightly dividing the Word of truth. Only those who have the Holy Spirit and are instructed by God are equipped to correctly handle His Word. Looking at the passage you quoted, Jesus, of course, was using these terms in relation to religious leadership as can be seen by the context of the passage, Matthew 23:1-39. I, of course, agree wholeheartedly with Him, He is my Lord and Savior after all, and I don’t want any individual to occupy the spiritual position in my life that only God has the power and the right to occupy. As far as parent and child relationships are concerned, it is evident throughout Scripture that this relationship is honored and sustained by God our Father. And of course Jesus Christ wouldn’t disagree with His Father since He and His Father are One.

    12 “Honor your father and your mother, that your days may be long upon the land which the Lord your God is giving you. Exodus 20:12

    1 Children, obey your parents in the Lord, for this is right. 2 “Honor your father and your mother,” which is the first commandment with promise: 3 that is may be will with you and you may live long on the earth.” 4. And you, fathers, do no provoke your children to wrath, but bring them up in the training and admonition of the Lord. Ephesians 6:1-4

    I have just demonstrated for you rightly dividing the Word of truth, and I pray that you will take it to heart..

    https://holdingforthhisword.wordpress.com/2014/05/29/the-word-of-righteousness/

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    • So call NO MAN ON EARTH FATHER doesn’t really mean call NO MAN ON EARTH FATHER? Hmmmm…I don’t quite understand that. “Honor your father and your mother” means give them honor; respect.

      When we are born again, we only have One Father in Heaven and residing in us. This puts us all on a spiritual plain that is equal. Our parents will always be our parents, but they become our spiritual equals if they choose to follow our Master, Christ Jesus, as well.

      Jesus was challenging titles and the way that people use titles to “lord” their supposed authority over one another. Even our own parents can be guilty of doing this as well. When a parent believes they have the right to try and control their adult child, it is the adult child who needs to stand up for Jesus and His teachings…all the while showing love, humility, and honor to their parents.

      Jesus honored His mother, and it appears that she followed Him…ultimately to watch her Son being executed on the cross. But one thing most people don’t notice is the fact that He never addresses her as “mother” in the gospel accounts. He called her “woman.” (At the wedding feast where she asked Him to provide more wine is one example…another example is when he is dying on the cross and He tells John to take care of her).

      Jesus also said to “hate” our mother and our father if they stand in the way of us following our Master. He said no one is to hold any higher priority in their life besides Him. Parents who have adult children who decide to follow Jesus tend to pull out the “honor thy father and thy mother” card when they are being used by Satan to keep the adult child from following their Lord wherever he is leading them. When we put Jesus and His teachings/commands 1st, our loved ones will say we are “hating” them if we don’t submit to their demands…demands which are often contrary to what Christ calls us to do.

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      • Eliza says:

        Yes, but that doesn’t mean that we can’t address our parents as mother and father. God’s Word written by the apostles called Mary His mother in numerous places in the gospels. Are you trying to tell us that we only need to pay attention to the actual words spoken by Jesus Christ as recorded by the apostles and prophets? That contradicts what He said about the Scripture in Mark chapter seven.

        He answered and said unto them, Well hath Esaias prophesied of you hypocrites, as it is written, This people honors me with their lips, but their heart is far from me. Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men. For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do. And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition. For Moses said, Honor thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curses father or mother, let him die the death: But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, It is Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou might be profited by me; he shall be free. And ye suffer him no more to do ought for his father or his mother; Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye. Mark 7:6-13

        Notice Jesus ascribes the commandment given by God to the Jews to Moses, thereby saying that what Moses wrote is the Word of God. Do you really want to dispute with Jesus about what is and isn’t His Word?

        And ye have not his word abiding in you: for whom he hath sent, him ye believe not. Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me. And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life. John 5:38-40

        Here Jesus says the Scriptures are God’s Word and the Jews did not have that Word abiding in them because they would not come to Him even though they testified of Him.

        What you said doesn’t mean that we cannot address our parents as father and mother. Really, you are doing what God commands not to do in His Word which is to argue over words which leads to ungodliness rather than edification which is in faith.

        If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness; He is proud, knowing nothing, but doting about questions and strifes of words, whereof cometh envy, strife, railings, evil surmisings, Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself. 1 Timothy 6:3-5

        It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him: If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us: If we believe not, yet he abides faithful: he cannot deny himself. Of these things put them in remembrance, charging them before the Lord that they strive not about words to no profit, but to the subverting of the hearers. Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needs not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness. 2 Timothy 2:11-16

        Again, you need to rightly divide the Word of truth, which is the entire Bible, not just the words that are in quotations and ascribed to Jesus, because all of the Bible is His word to us.

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      • Eliza writes:

        “What you said doesn’t mean that we cannot address our parents as father and mother. Really, you are doing what God commands not to do in His Word which is to argue over words which leads to ungodliness rather than edification which is in faith.”

        But Jesus said:

        “And do not call ANYONE on earth ‘father,’ for you have one Father, and he is in heaven….”

        These aren’t “arguments over (mere) words that lead to ungodliness” Eliza, this is what it looks like to consider that Jesus actually meant what he said, thereby CORRECTLY and “rightly dividing the Word (who is Jesus) of Truth (Jesus again!)”.

        You are welcome to continue believing that the bible (which parts, BTW?) completely lines up without any contradictions whatsoever with what Jesus says in his own words in the 4 gospels. We’ll just have to agree to disagree since we believe Jesus ALONE is THE way, THE truth, & THE life…not the bible.

        You’ll never hear Jesus say this:

        “Jesus answered, “(the bible) is the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through (the bible).”

        Just something to ponder for all those who have made a God out of the bible itself, demoting Jesus in the process.

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  5. Eliza says:

    You aren’t arguing with me you are arguing with Jesus Christ who you say you follow. It is clear that you aren’t following Him because you disregard His Word. He completely fulfilled all righteousness for us by completely obeying all of the commands in the Old Testament. If Jesus Christ kept God’s Word then who are we to disregard it? You are proving what God has proven to me time and time again, those who are His through faith in Jesus Christ know and believe that the Bible is the Word of God and obey what He has said in His Word. Jesus Christ is not divided nor does He contradict Himself. I want to give you a last example that I pray the Lord Jesus Christ will use to deliver you from deception.

    18 So He said to them, “Are you thus without understanding also? Do you not perceive that whatever enters a man from outside cannot defile him, 19 because it does not enter his heart but his stomach, and is eliminated, thus purifying all foods?” Mark 7:18-19

    10 Then he became very hungry and wanted to eat; but while they made ready, he fell into a trance 11 and saw heaven opened and an object like a great sheet bound at the four corners, descending to him and let down to the earth. 12 In it were all kinds of four-footed animals of the earth wild beasts, creeping things, and birds of the air. 13 And a voice came to him, “Rise, Peter; kill and eat.” 14 But Peter said, “Not so, Lord! For I have never eaten anything common or unclean.” 15 And a voice spoke to him again the second time, “What God has cleansed you must not call common.” Acts 10:10-15

    1 Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons, 2 speaking lies in hypocrisy, having their own conscience seared with a hot iron, 3 forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from foods which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth. 4 For every creature of God is good, and nothing is to be refused if it is received with thanksgiving; 5 for it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer. 1 Timothy 4:1-5

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    • It’s not clear what point you were trying to make with the discombobulated scriptural references in your last reply, Eliza.

      What is clear is that the title we gave this little article (“Are We Heretics?”) has proven somewhat prophetic since it is almost always those who hold the bible in higher esteem than Jesus Christ himself that are the first to issue these same accusations against us, i.e. that we are somehow following “doctrines of demons” by putting Jesus’ own teachings in the gospels above everything else.

      It’s sad that so many bible-worshippers can’t see that they are equating any attempts to TRY to follow the Jesus of the gospels as heretical and even demonic!

      It makes one wonder how they might argue their case before God—-“I told them they were demons for trying to follow your Son, Father, and that they needed to value everything God in the flesh—the creator of the entire universe—said on par with people like Solomon”!

      But we don’t despair since the holy spirit reminds us of what Jesus said:

      …10″Blessed are those who have been persecuted for the sake of righteousness, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. 11″Blessed are you when people insult you and persecute you, and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of Me. 12″Rejoice and be glad, for your reward in heaven is great; for in the same way they persecuted the prophets who were before you.”

      And for the sake of clarifying your own position, Eliza, that we MUST obey the whole bible, how do you handle issues like this one:

      “Anyone who dishonors father or mother must be put to death. Such a person is guilty of a capital offense.”

      ?

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      • Eliza says:

        I know that you have a hard time following God’s word so I will make allowances for you asking the question about the verses that I shared. They point out that Jesus declared all foods clean, the voice from heaven declared all foods clean and Paul stated that all foods are sanctified by the word of God (the verses that I shared from the Scriptures) and prayer bringing it all full circle. You will always fail to see the relevance of rightly dividing the Word of God because you are in the depths of deception.

        The problem is that you are saying you are following Jesus by following the words attributed to Him by the apostles, but since you discount the Scriptures as a whole how can you be sure that what is recorded in the Bible is an accurate representation of what Christ actually said? Additionally, you are harping on something that is a non issue with the Lord. This is the tactic of those who are false.

        34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your law, ‘I said, “You are gods”? 35 If He called them gods, to whom the word of God came (and the Scripture cannot be broken), 36 do you say of Him whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, ‘You are blaspheming,’ because I said, ‘I am the Son of God’? John 10:34-37

        14 “I have given them Your word; and the world has hated them because they are not of the world, just as I am not of the world. 15 I do not pray that You should take them out of the world, but that You should keep them from the evil one. 16 They are not of the world, just as I am not of the world. 17 Sanctify them by Your truth, Your word is truth. John 17:14-17

        Jesus Christ believed the Scripture to be the Word of God. He also taught that what He said were the Words that the Father had given Him. God’s Word does not contradict itself. You are arguing with Jesus Christ the Lord of Creation. I pray that He may grant you mercy and open your eyes to the blasphemy of what you believe and proclaim.

        As far as the Scripture that you quoted there is an example of this punishment being exercised against a rebellious son in the Old Testament, Leviticus 24, when he blasphemed God’s name. This was an Old Testament law and if you understood the Scriptures you would understand that it was significant for the nation of Israel to keep them pure, being God’s chosen people (since God is holy), and ready as the people from whom the Messiah would come.

        You should repent and ask the Lord Jesus Christ to forgive you for blaspheming His name and leading others astray.

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  6. gracealone1 says:

    There are two verses (among many others) that apply here also, one in Psalms and the other in John. Psalm 138:2; “…For You have magnified Your word above all Your name.” John 5:46&47; “For if you believed Moses, you would believe Me; for he wrote about Me. But if you do not believe his writings, how will you believe My words?” Here, Jesus equates the words of Moses with His own words in power and authority (they were, after all, directly inspired by the Holy Spirit), which leads us to Deut. 4:2 that states “You shall not add to the word that I command you, nor take from it….” (similar to be found in Deut. 12:32 and Rev. 22:18&19). Also to be considered are the words of the Father to Moses from the burning bush and elsewhere and don’t forget His (the Father’s) word found in Matt. 3:17; Matt. 17:5 and John 12:28. In your scheme of things these words of the Father are counted as less important because they are not the words that came from the mouth of Jesus Himself. Also, according to your way of thinking all 66 Books of the Bible take second place to the specific recorded words of the Lord Jesus and it has become your quest to inform us misguided folk of the error that has been allowed to stand since the Garden of Eden (where also the Father spoke) that being that the Bible is not the Word of God. In effect, this totally negates all prophesies especially those regarding the Messiah, since according to you they do not qualify as the valid Word of God.

    You are on very dangerous ground. Either “All Scripture is given by inspiration of God” [the Holy Spirit] or it is not. 2 Tim. 3:16 (another invalid remark by Paul as you consider it to be). To answer to title question of this post “Are we heretics” the answer is “YES” you most definitely are in this specific case and whether it goes beyond this is yet to be seen, but I suspect so. The danger is this: if indeed all Scripture is inspired by the Holy Spirit and you still think it less than equal to the very words of Jesus Himself, have you not insulted the Spirit of Grace (that being tantamount to blaspheming the One Who gave us the Scriptures, ie the Holy Spirit)?

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    • Whew! It sure is hard work being a heretic! Man, you guys seem so loving and merciful in your proclamation that we are blaspheming heretics…when can we join your church(es)?

      It seems that bibllians (people who worship the 66 books of the King James Version of the bible) always love to quote 2 Timothy 3:16: “All Scripture is given by inspiration of God” The problem is that THEY don’t actually believe that same verse! When Paul was saying all scripture, the New Testament hadn’t even been compiled yet. The King James Version has 66 books, both old and new testaments, but that wasn’t canonized scripture in the Apostle Paul’s life.

      Think about it this way…if Paul was writing scripture that declared ALL scripture was inspired, when did the church start recognizing that at least SOME scripture was not inspired (like the gnostic gospels for instance)?

      We know that you Eliza, and you, gracealone1, firmly believe us to be heretics, and we don’t really need to debate that with you simply because: A). You won’t change our perspective and B). we won’t likely change yours. We only wrote that post to show others just how easy it is to be labeled a dangerous, blaspheming heretic if we hold to a position that says Jesus’ words as recorded in the gospels are spirit and life and that He alone has the words of eternal life. (You’ll notice that even in those 66 books of the bible, you can find some of them with the words of Christ in red, which would seem to indicate a higher/deeper significance that the black letters).

      Anyway, thanks for sharing. At least we have hopefully got people thinking. For anyone else interested in this topic, here is another heretic writer who challenges the bible being the “Word of God” rather than JESUS being the Word of God. (John 1)

      Below is a lengthy post with someone whom we have respect for, but we also disagree with some aspects of his teaching. However, the areas we disagree with him (the author below) pales in comparison to how much we disagree with Eliza and Gracealone1.

      The Beliefs of Biblical Inspiration and Inerrancy:

      Does Jesus Teach Them?

      “You search the scriptures, for in them you think you have eternal life; and these are they which testify of me. But you are not willing to come to me that you may have life.” (John 5:39-40)

      Yes, sadly a passion for the BIBLE and not for the Light of the world…

      Confusion is not of God, and confusion hinders knowing truth. As an example, let us say that a person writes one singular truth in one sentence on one page of paper. Let us also say that another person then takes that paper with the one singular truth in the one sentence, and surrounds that sentence with other sentences and paragraphs which add to, take away, nullify, or distract you from absorbing that one singular truth. Most people will not be able to see the singular truth clearly once all that other stuff was added to it, and some would not see the singular truth at all.

      As another example, let us say that a person writes a one page document which contains fifty percent truth, and fifty percent error. Then, an authority takes that page and hands it to people who respect his authority, and that authority tells the people that the one page document is one-hundred percent truth and they ought to believe all that is written on that page. If the people respect that person more than wanting to know truth, then what will happen to their ability to judge truth? Will it not be compromised at best, or destroyed at worst? If disagreeing with the authority will have uncomfortable consequences, or even cost the person something they want, will they still hold to the truth?

      In the same way, what if there is a book that contains sixty-six chapters, and only four of the sixty-six chapters contain ninety-nine percent truth while the other sixty-two chapters contain only ten percent truth. And what if an authority that many people respect takes that book and hands it to the people and tells them it contains one-hundred percent truth. If the people respect the authorities more than wanting to know Truth, then what will happen to their ability to judge truth? Will it not be compromised at best, or destroyed at worst? Will they be willing to hold to the truth even if it means being rejected from their cherished social or religious circles of friends?

      Please see this article for a fuller explanation of the above points:

      That Which is Most Valuable Has Been Lost

      Introduction:

      The issue of where and how God reveals Himself to mankind is an important one. After all, those who want to know God – who He is, what He is like, what He wants of an individual’s life – must have some means to get to know Him.

      There are different views on how to go about knowing God. Some look to experience in the emotional realm. That is to say they “feel God’s presence” during some stirring music with lyrics that they believe speak of their God and/or his or her ways. Others will say that they will just follow their heart in finding or knowing God. Other’s look to current popular religious leaders or speakers to “hear from God and to learn His will for their lives”. Others “feel God” when they go through some religious ritual, or are in some religious building. Some look to mystical experiences induced by various chemical means. Some hold to a book as if every letter, word, chapter and verse in that book is their personal legal contract with God. Some do a little bit of each. There are a myriad of ways people seek to hear from a God they believe exists.

      For the follower of Jesus of Nazareth, the primary way to get to know Jesus’ Father is by learning from Jesus himself, for Jesus perfectly represented the Father during his first coming. How can a person alive today learn from Jesus himself? By receiving his Words as recorded in the gospels. For the disciple of Jesus, the only sure way to get to know Jesus and His Father is by reading the very utterances from Jesus of Nazareth Himself (NOT the rest of the bible), for Jesus himself is the Word of God. And the only place to find those utterances of Jesus is in the four gospel accounts in the New Testament, plus a few words in the beginning of the book of Acts.

      Jesus often quoted from the OT scriptures, as he referred to them in his teachings (Mark 12:10; Luke 4:21; John 7:38, 10:35, 13:18, etc.). Jesus referred to portions of the scripture as true, meaning what he quoted from the human author’s of scripture contained the very commands of his Father (Matt. 5:17-19; Luke 16:31). Jesus also quoted some of the words of author’s of scripture as prophetic, meaning that God spoke in times past about future events (particularly about Messiah and his comings) through these men. These prophetic passages centered on what God was going to do, and Jesus was fulfilling that which was previously prophesied about God’s Messiah (Matt. 5:17; Luke 4:18-21).

      Jesus said something very interesting regarding the “scriptures”. He said to the religious leaders of his day:

      “You search the scriptures, for in them you think you have eternal life; and these are they which testify of me. But you are not willing to come to me that you may have life.” (John 5:39).

      Jesus said that the religious leaders of his day thought that because they possessed, and sought to understand, the scriptures, that in THEM they had eternal life. Jesus said that while they possessed the scriptures – and thought they had a correct understanding of the scriptures and the subject of the scriptures – yet they missed the primary purpose of the scriptures, which was to reveal the Messiah so that people could come personally to him in order to enter into eternal life. In other words, they had the map, and they thought by possessing and being able to read the map approved them with God. However, they refused to use the map to go to the needed destination – which was to meet, and then follow after the living God’s Son, Messiah Jesus. They insisted on admiring the map, and knowing every little detail ABOUT the map, but they refused to use the map to take them to Life.

      My working premise for this article is that the same thing has occurred since Jesus went back to be with the Father. That is that the religious men – now under the name of Jesus “church” or congregation – have made the same mistake. They are relying upon their possession of the scriptures (or the bible, for they are synonymous) and their intellectual study of the bible in order to think that they are right with God, or to think that they have eternal life. And yet, they refuse to come to Jesus in order to actually enter into eternal life through him.

      The place to start is to look at what bible believers say is the word of God. They say the bible is the word of God, and they do this based primarily on one teaching of the man Saul of Tarsus, the chief voice in the new testament. The scripture they base their belief on is this:

      “All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work.” (2 Timothy 3:16-17)

      On this teaching of Paul, the doctrine of biblical inspiration is based. The inspiration doctrine says that the men who contributed to the bible were inspired of the Holy Spirit and thus their writings perfectly reflect God’s mind on what they wrote about. The next doctrine they build from the inspiration doctrine is the doctrine of biblical inerrancy. That doctrine says that since the scripture is inspired of God, it must be without error or infallible. Finally, the last doctrine that is build upon the first two is that of biblical infallibility. That belief says that since inspiration and inerrancy are true, the teachings of the bible/scripture is infallible (that is, without error on the subjects it addresses), since the writers perfectly represent God’s mind on what issues they speak to. When referring to the collection of these beliefs – inspiration, inerrancy and infallibility – I will refer to them as the three-I’s.

      The key doctrine, however, is biblical inerrancy and that belief will be the main focus of this article although the accompanying beliefs will be addressed.

      If there are errors in the scripture/bible – that is teachings that contradict each other – then all three doctrines are proved false. In this author’s opinion, the belief of biblical inerrancy, as the clergymen articulate it, presents the biggest obstacle to people who are sincerely trying to find God and his will through the bible, from being successful in that endeavor. This foolish religious doctrine greatly contributes to the inability of people to find Messiah Jesus, and then it is used to nullify Jesus’ most important teachings. Finally, it hinders those who are his from getting to know the Father and Son better and thus it prevents them growing in their faith and relationship with God.

      Let us take a brief look at the doctrine of “inerrancy” and its companion doctrine, “inspiration” as taught by today’s “bible believing” church men.

      The following is a section of an article by Ron Rhodes:

      The Inspiration, Inerrancy, and Authority of the bible

      by Ron Rhodes

      What Is Inspiration?

      “Biblical inspiration may be defined as God’s superintending of the human authors so that, using their own individual personalities (and even their writing styles), they composed and recorded without error His revelation to man in the words of the original autographs. Inspiration means that “the Holy Spirit of God superintended the human writers in the production of scripture so that what they wrote was precisely what God wanted written.”

      When you break the doctrine of inspiration down to its essential elements, there are seven key factors:

      � Divine origin and causality;

      � Human agency;

      � Written verbally (in words);

      � Plenary (all of scripture is inspired, not just parts of it);

      � Only the “Autographs” (the original documents penned by the biblical authors) are inspired;

      � Because scripture is inspired, it is inerrant; and

      � Because scripture is inspired and inerrant, it alone has final authority.

      The word inspiration literally means “God-breathed” in the Greek. And because scripture is breathed out by God, it is true and inerrant. Consider the following syllogism:

      Major Premise:

      God is true (Romans 3:4).

      Minor Premise:

      God breathed out the scriptures (2 Timothy 3:16).

      Conclusion:

      Therefore, the scriptures are true (John 17:17).

      As illustrated above, the inerrancy of scripture can be inferred by premises that are themselves taught by scripture.

      We read in scripture that truth is an attribute of God (Jeremiah 10:10; John 1:14; 14:6; 17:3), and that God speaks truthfully – that is, He does not lie (Numbers 23:19; 1 Samuel 15:29; Titus 1:2; Romans 3:3-4).

      We also are told that scripture is “breathed out” by God (2 Timothy 3:16).

      The Word of God, then, is true (John 17:14,17; cf. Psalm 119:142; 151; 160; Revelation 21:5; 22:6).”

      http://home.earthlink.net/~ronrhodes/Inspiration.html

      Comments on Ron Rhodes teachings of inspiration:

      Notice first that the claim to “without error” applies only to the “original autographs”. No one possesses the original autographs, so what is the point of this claim? This is indeed a weak premise to start with. If we don’t possess the originals, then what point is made by saying the originals were “without error”? How can this be proved? Clearly, this leaves the door open for error being interjected into the scripture by men, including from a textual transmission (making copies, and translations to different languages) standpoint. He then states:

      Inspiration means that “the Holy Spirit of God superintended the human writers in the production of scripture so that what they wrote was precisely what God wanted written.”

      This principle states that “the human authors of scripture�wrote precisely what God wanted written”. It must be acknowledged that this belief is not put forth by Jesus, but by Paul. As such, the belief should be suspect, and if we find contradictions in the bible, this belief ought to be rejected, for a perfect, all knowing being would not contradict himself.

      People involved in bible-based sects reject most of Jesus’ key teaching in order to make it easy to enter into heaven by stating that a person just needs to read the bible (at least their part of it!), and ‘believe’, meaning assent intellectually, to the content therein. This is the greatest slight of hand, which immediately takes the focus off of Jesus of Nazareth and onto many other voices. Of course it is also believed that one can only really understand the bible “properly” by having the “theologically educated, professional, expert clergy” interpret it for them (or if one is part of the pentecostal organizations, the “annointed ones”). This drive to harmonize the bible is needful do the many contradictions contained in the bible, and thus the exposing of the error of the beloved doctrine of biblical inerrancy.

      Of course, a few other things are taught by the clergy as needed as well, like join their organizations, come to their buildings, and pay the clergyman to ‘minister to the flock’, etc. Today’s religious leaders, just like all of yesterdays, don’t teach like Jesus (Matt. 13:11-15) so is it surprising they invent doctrines that encourage people to follow them and their programs and agenda? After all, if we are told by the ones who we foolishly deem are closest to God due to their worldly credentials, that they have the key to understanding the difficulties (read contradictions) in the bible, then who are we dependant on to know God?

      Mr. Rhodes continues by laying out the doctrine of inspiration into seven elements in an attempt to support his view of inspiration and inerrancy.

      The first three building blocks this author agrees with i.e. divine origin and causality; human agency; and written verbally (as opposed to symbols or other non-word ways of communicating). But what about the forth, “Plenary (all of scripture is inspired, not just parts of it)”. This principle has two serious problems. First, it begs the question of what is included in “scripture” to start with. The “cannon” of the “protestant” bible is different from the “cannon” of romanism – so whose cannon is correct? And this is only an obvious example. What about the New Testament? How was it decided what was “scripture” and thus should be included, and what was not scripture? If you look at the tests proffered by the “scholars”, the tests for scripture are very subjective. All of Jesus’ references to the “scripture” refer to the Old Testament – thus we have a sure testimony defining scripture – if one believes that Jesus of Nazareth is God’s Son and his words were accurately recorded and preserved in the gospels, which this author does. How do we know for sure that anything written after Messiah’s own words were recorded and he ascended back to the right hand of the Father, is “scripture”? To point to Peter’s words about Paul’s writings in one of his letters is a shaky foundation. In addition, Peter’s words would only apply to Paul’s words then, so what about Peter’s or Jude’s or John’s?

      More importantly and fundamentally, why would more have to be written – what more about the Father can be revealed – after the Son of God perfectly revealed God the Father to mankind, and that revealing is contained in the four gospels?

      Then Mr. Rhodes puts forth the disclaimer to account for clear errors in transmitting manuscripts i.e. “Only the “Autographs” (the original documents penned by the biblical authors) are inspired”. Again, this principle leaves the door wide open to error being interjected into the scripture by those people who transmitted and translated the writings from copies of the originals. These errors could be either of ignorance or purposeful personal agenda – like the clergymen retaining power over the people.

      Now Mr. Rhodes string of logic falls apart. The next principle is, “Because scripture is inspired, it is inerrant”. There are two serious problems with this conclusion. First, we have not agreed about whether God could have purposely allowed or decreed that an author of scripture interject his non-inspired comments amidst the inspired words (write something that contradicts another principle somewhere else in the scripture). Second, we have not defined what exactly makes up “scripture” e.g. protestant versus roman. Thus, it is logically impossible to draw the conclusion that scripture is without error until these two questions are answered – could God have allowed or ordained some error interjected into the bible on the part of the human authors of scripture; and what exactly makes up scripture?

      The doctrines of inspiration and inerrancy, as proffered by the clergy, makes it appear easy to find and know God, for they say all you need to do is read the bible and believe everything in it. Of course, once you submit to the clergy and come into their organization, they will start to change the story about believing everything in the bible. They will tell you that “that particular command” of Jesus no longer applies to us, since it was only relevant to the culture in which it was written. Or they will say, ‘we must not take that literally, it is figurative’. Then they say, ‘well, we must do this’ even though the practice is not found in the scripture (like spend much money in building a public building people call “the church” and pay the clergymen their salaries). So, in essence, they say “believe the bible”, but they teach that only they, the clergy, have the expertise (bible college, ordination, etc.) to properly interpret the bible [see How to Know God and Education-olotry: Are Seminaries biblical?].

      Get the picture?

      In conclusion, on the basis of God saying we must seek Him with all our heart, and His Messiah saying we must strive to enter into the kingdom of God, it would seem reasonable to allow for the possibility of God allowing a human author of scripture interjecting his flesh (and thus error) into their writings. The Lord forces no one to love him or abide in him – this is a matter of that individual’s will. And perhaps it is a bit unrealistic to assume that the author’s of scripture where abiding in Him perfectly every time they picked up a pen to write their letters (the scripture itself does not state that those who penned the scripture were in some kind of state of spiritual perfection in allowing God�s Words to come through them). Perhaps the Lord wants people to have to make some effort to find the truth, and not just hand it to them plainly? (Matt. 13:11-15) Kind of like digging gold nuggets out of the surrounding soil. Would gold be as valuable to men if it was abundant and easily found? Perhaps the same is true with God’ communication to mankind. Perhaps His truth is narrow and difficult to find if we are NOT seeking Him with all our HEART? (Matt. 7:13-14) And perhaps it is difficult to find not because of intellectual complexity, but because we refuse to humble ourselves and become as little children in order to receive His Truth? (Luke 18:17)

      The typical response by the clergymen to the belief that the bible does contain error is, “well, if one thing in the bible is wrong, then you can’t trust any of it”. This is an erroneous argument. The argument rests on the assumption that God made sure that the bible we hold in our hands has no error in it whatsoever and so if there is something wrong with the book, then there must be something wrong with it’s subject. Where is that precept stated in the bible itself? In fact, it is not stated anywhere (and as we will see later, there are some undeniable errors in the bible which even people like Mr. Rhodes admit to). Their argument is like saying, “because the book you wrote about your life was accurate – except the one portion where you let someone else comment on your life, which portion contained error – the entire book is untrustworthy and erroneous”; or “because you sinned once yesterday, everything you did yesterday was error and cannot be trusted”; or “well, since you have a grain of sand in your salad, the entire salad is bad”.

      This author�s position on the scripture is that God did preserve His Word�s and the truths He wanted to convey to mankind in the bible, but He only did so perfectly through his perfect Son. Only His sinless Son’s Words are completely trustworthy in as much as they were accurately written down and preserved. This position does not arrive at a logical conclusion that you can�t trust any of what is written in the bible � any such conclusion is not logical, but illogical and merely an emotional defense given to hold to another preferred belief, namely the three I’s as described above. This author�s position exhorts the reader of the bible to know what exactly the Word of God is…and it is not the bible. Rather, it is a person, the Son of the Living God, Jesus of Nazareth.

      The argument of ‘well if one thing is wrong, none of it can be trusted’ also begs the question in terms of what books actually comprise “the scripture”. Where did Jesus or any of the writers in the scripture, say, for example, “Thus saith the Lord, the New Testament shall be comprised of the following books�” There is much dogmatism regarding the bible, and defending it, and very little learning to hate our life in the world, and following the Jesus who reveals HIMSELF through his OWN WORDS in the gospels. It is much easier for us to argue and defend the intellectual source of our beliefs, than it is to pick up our cross and lose our lives for Him whom the scriptures reveal.

      So, what test could we use to prove that God could have purposely allowed or decreed that an author of scripture interject his non-inspired comments amidst the inspired words? Or that men who copied the scripture interjected their religious/political opinions in the copies? Well, we could see if scripture contains errors – that is that it contains internal contradictions.

      Here are a few obvious examples to consider:

      Old Testament Errors:

      Gen. 25:1 versus 1 Chron. 1:32, wife versus concubine

      2 Kings 24:8 versus 2 Chron. 36:9, 18 years old versus 8 years old

      1 Kings 7:26 versus 2 Chron. 4:5, 2,000 versus 3,000 baths

      Ezra 2:5 versus Nehemiah 7:10, 775 versus 652 sons (It must be asked why the translators translate the same exact Hebrew word transliterated “bane” as two different English words?)

      1 Kings 9:27-28 versus 2 Chron. 8:18, 420 versus 450 talents of gold

      II Samuel 24 :1 versus I Chronicles 21:1, God versus Satan

      Isaiah 34:7, King James version, �unicorn� an animal of Latin-Greek mythology

      Isaiah 13:21, 34:14, King James version, �saytr� a half-human, half-goat creature of Latin-Greek mythology

      New Testament Errors:

      Matthew 27:9-10 cites Jeremiah, yet the prophesy is clearly contained in Zechariah 11:12-13

      Matt. 1:16 versus Luke 3:23, Jacob versus Heli

      Matt. 8:5 versus Luke 7:3,6, Centurion himself versus “elders of the Jews” or “friends”

      Matt. 8:28 versus Mark 5:2, 15, “two demon possessed men” versus one man.

      Mark 14:69 versus Luke 22:59, The same servant girl the second time, or “another saw him�Man, I do not know what you are saying” when previously he said to the servant girl, “Woman, I do not know him”.

      Acts 12:4, King James version uses the word, “easter”, while almost every other major translation uses the word “passover”. So, which translation is correct?

      Eph. 2:8-9 versus James 2:24, Oh, the tap dancing and sleight-of-hand used to try and reconcile the plain contradiction between, “saved through faith alone…not of works” versus “justified by works, and not by faith only”.

      Eph. 4:11 versus John 10:16, The same Greek word “poimen” is translated “Shepherd” in John 10:16 and “pastor(s)” in Eph. 4:11. What rational explanation exists for that except the translators wanted to avoid the plain contradiction.

      The Old Testament teaches, “The law of the LORD is perfect, restoring the soul” (Psalm 17:9). Most bible leaders take that to mean Moses teachings in the torah. In stark contrast and rebuke, Messiah says in reference to Moses teachings, “You have heard that it was said, ‘YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT ADULTERY’ (a teaching of Moses in Exodus 20:14 or Deut. 5:18); but I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart.” (Matthew 5:27-28) According to Messiah, the law of Moses was quite imperfect, incomplete and unfulfilled (see Follow Jesus, Not Moses). If this is so (and Jesus says it is) then how could Moses writing be inerrant or perfectly portraying the Father’s mind?

      Other Contradictions:

      King David: “I hate them with the utmost hatred; They have become my enemies.” (Psalms 139:22)

      King Messiah: “You have heard that it was said, ‘YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR and hate your enemy.’ “But I say to you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you…” (Matthew 5:43-44)

      Comments: Are these words of David inspired by the Holy Spirit? Not according to Messiah. All arguments to justify David’s words because he was in the Old Covenant commit the error of begging the question. Has God the Father changed so much between the covenants that in one case His Spirit “inspired” David to express and justify hatred, while in the other, His Son teaches just the opposite?

      King Solomon: “A time to love and a time to hate; A time for war and a time for peace.” (Ecclesiastes 3:8)

      King Messiah: “You have heard that it was said, ‘YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR and hate your enemy.’ “But I say to you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you…” (Matthew 5:43-44)

      Comments: Are these words of Solomon inspired by the Holy Spirit? Not according to Messiah. Jesus teaches that God the Father rewards mercy and loving your enemies, and thus God’s Spirit at no time taught that there is a time for “hate” and for “war” for those who are listening to Him. Of course one is free to explain the truth away with philosophies (which philosophies Jesus did not teach) about how God’s commands do or do not apply to nations.

      Job 42:8: God supposedly speaking: “For I will accept him so that I may not do with you according to your folly, because you have not spoken of Me what is right, as My servant Job has.�

      Comments: If these words in the scripture are correct (and according to Paul’s doctrine they must be), then whatever was recorded in the preceding chapters of the book of Job that was said by Job’s friends about God is wrong – “you have not spoken of me what is right”. How could the Holy Spirit allow scripture to be wrong about God, for whatever was recorded of the friend’s words about God in those scripturres is wrong?

      This author could site many other contradictions and errors, but if the reader will not be convinced of even one of these plain errors cited above, then they will not be convinced by one thousand. The only house of cards that falls if even one error is found in the scripture, is the house of cards of the bible men’s doctrines of inspiration, inerrancy and infallibility, which doctrines support the belief that there are NO errors in the scripture. The Words of the Word of God (Jesus), on the other hand, shall stand forever, whether we see them or not.

      Based on these actual examples of plain errors, it would be foolish and irrational to hold onto the view of inspiration held by the clergymen and expounded above by Mr. Rhodes. This author has previously run to the “scholars” in order to find reasonable explanations of these errors so that I could hold onto the doctrines of the three-Is as proffered by the bible scholar’s so-called. In fact, this author purchased big, thick books by �prominent evangelical scholars�, which books purposes was to try to reconcile contradictions. Praise God the blinders are off this author’s eyes on this matter, by God’s mercy, and this author can no longer argue that 1 plus 1 equals 3. This author prays the same can be said of the reader.

      The last conclusion of Mr. Rhodes is the one that is most obviously the same error that Jesus corrected the religious leaders of his day for. It reads, “Because scripture is inspired and inerrant, it alone has final authority.” Notice what (and not who) has “final authority” – it is “the scripture” or “the bible” and NOT God or His Messiah. In contrast, Jesus says, “All authority has been given to me in heaven and on earth”. (Matthew 28:18) Jesus is the final authority, for he is the Word of God to men, NOT a book that contains his Words, nor the men who say they can properly interpret it.

      It appears to this author that the modern concept of “inspiration” is leading people into the same trap Jesus warned against. You see it is the religious leaders who alone can “properly interpret” the scripture, and it is they who even tell us what the scripture is. Since the “scripture” has authority, and not God, then by deduction, the “laymen” have as their final authority the people who can correctly interpret the scripture. Thus they turn to their shepherds and therefore turn away from the Good Shepherd.

      We westerners are very intellectually oriented, and we place a high premium on being able to use the laws of logic to arrive at truth. But logic does not put forth precepts, it only can be used to find error. Thinking that using logic is the way to find God is in direct contradiction to what Jesus teaches, “I praise You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from the wise and intelligent and have revealed them to infants”. (Matthew 11:25) [see also Education-olotry].

      Furthermore, Jesus plainly states, “But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you.” (John 14:26) Take special note of the highlighted phrase. Notice who will teach us ALL things pertaining to God and His kingdom…it is certainly NOT ‘the clergy’ nor any other man or woman. Also note what the standard is that the Spirit will work from…it is the Words of the Word of God (that I SAID TO YOU), Jesus of Nazareth! Not the rest of the bible, but the Word’s Words!

      But perhaps it is easier to just believe the traditions of men, and in order to not lose our life in this world, go on defending those traditions in spite of the truth and instead of giving our lives away in following the Messiah?

      Mr. Rhodes continues to press his case for his view of the doctrine of inspiration, with a logical syllogism. It’s major premise is that “God is true”. This truth is self evident, for the testimony of Jesus is that God’s nature is perfect, holy and righteous, and thus He could only be true, and not false. The minor premise is, “God breathed out the scriptures (2 Timothy 3:16)”. As you can see, the author refers to 2 Tim. 3:16 to support the statement that God breathed out the scriptures. First of all, this is NOT a teaching of Jesus, and thus the follower of Jesus would not consider this teaching authoritative.

      Also, this does not address what exactly constitutes the scripture, nor whether the human authors could have somehow resisted the Holy Spirit and corrupted what God wanted written, or whether God could have purposely ordained that the human author’s flesh be allowed to be recorded. What God “breathes out” directly from His mouth is true, no doubt. It is when He used human instruments to convey His words, that reasonable questions remain. What God breathed out, AND when that was accurately recorded by the human author’s of scripture (in the original autographs, remember), AND, subsequent copies of the originals were not corrupted in any way, THEN those truths are inspired and thus inerrant.

      The problem comes in the concept Mr. Rhodes mentions of “the Holy Spirit of God superintended the human writers in the production of scripture so that what they wrote was precisely what God wanted written�. Does “superintending” the human writers mean he directly and completely controlled their thoughts when they were writing the scripture? It would seem that this would have to be true in order for the other conclusion to follow, namely that “so that what they wrote was precisely what God wanted written”. Yet most of the men who proffer this teaching admit they do not believe that God completely controlled their thoughts. Mr. Rhodes eludes to his rejection of this view by saying, “using their own individual personalities (and even their writing styles)”. There is much of the sinner left in control by these words of Mr. Rhodes. And the errors in the scripture (those cited above and others that could be cited) confirm that the doctrines of the three-Is are false.

      Here is another church man’s attempt at defending the three-Is:

      The Inspiration of the bible

      Rick Wade

      “What do we mean by inspiration? Following the work of the higher critics, many people–even within the church–have come to see the bible as inspired in the same way that, say, an artist might be inspired. The artist sees the Grand Canyon and with her imagination now flooded with images and ideas hurries back to her canvas to paint a beautiful picture. A poet, upon viewing the devastation of war, proceeds to pen lines which stir the compassion of readers. Is that what we mean when we say the bible is inspired?

      We use the word inspiration because of 2 Timothy 3:16: “All scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness.” Inspired is translated from the Greek word theopnuestos which literally means “God-breathed.” Some have said the word could be translated “ex-spired” or “breathed out.” Inspiration, then, in the biblical sense, isn�t the stirring of the imagination of the writer, but rather is the means by which the writers accurately wrote what God wanted written.

      This idea finds support in 2 Peter 1: 20-21: “But know this first of all, that no prophecy of scripture is a matter of one�s own interpretation, for no prophecy was ever made by an act of human will, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God.”

      What we need before proceeding is a working definition of inspiration. Theologian Carl F. H. Henry writes, “Inspiration is a supernatural influence upon the divinely chosen prophets and apostles whereby the Spirit of God assures the truth and trustworthiness of their oral and written proclamation.”{1} Furthermore, the writers were “divinely superintended by the Holy Spirit in the choice of words they used.”{2} Although some things were dictated to the writers, most of the time the Spirit simply superintended the writing so that the writer, using his own words, wrote what the Spirit wanted.”

      http://www.probe.org/docs/inspiration.html

      Comments on Mr. Wade’s writing:

      This is another good example of the doctrine of inspiration as commonly believed in bible religion. It is not significantly different than Mr. Rhodes. Two things are of note. He quotes 2 Pet. 1:20-21 to support the statement, “Inspiration, then, in the biblical sense, isn�t the stirring of the imagination of the writer, but rather is the means by which the writers accurately wrote what God wanted written.” The most glaring problem is again that Peter is not the sinless Son of God, thus the follower of Jesus would not look at that teaching as authoritative (while the follower of the bible or of Peter might look at that as authoritative).

      In addition, Mr. Wade’s jumps from “inspiration of scripture” to Peter’s plain restriction to prophetic (“prophesy”) scripture. Most agree that it is reasonable to think that Peter had the Old Testament in view here in this statement � and Peter clearly restricted that statement to those portions of the Old Testament which were deemed prophetic. Not all scripture is prophesy – Proverbs is an obvious example of this, as would be the vast majority of the New Testament. So, Peter’s statement does not address the non-prophetic scripture. In fact, Peter’s statement could easily be taken to support the concept of only the prophetic scripture being inspired by God. Or it could be taken to support different levels of inspiration in the scripture. One thing is sure, and that is that Peter’s statement does NOT support the churchmen’s contention that Genesis 1 to Revelation 22 is ALL inspired by God. So, they are pretty much left with 2 Tim. 3:16 to support their beliefs. Let’s take a closer look at that verse:

      “All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness�”

      Again, this is a statement of Paul, not Jesus. Thus, it would be very unwise to base one’s faith on Paul’s words instead of Jesus’ if you are a follower of Jesus. Before we try and understand what this verse means, let’s be clear on what it does not mean. What the verse does not say is, “All scripture includes every word in the 66 books of the late 20th century protestant bible, and God did not allow any human error to be recorded, even as he made sure His thoughts were recorded by each author in the scriptures.” This is what the churchmen make this saying of Paul to mean. Secondly, it is quite apparent that what Paul has in view in that statement when he says “Scripture” is the Old Testament, and thus the statement would not apply to the new testament.

      If we are to take this teaching as authoritative at all – which this author does not since it is NOT the Words of Jesus who Alone is the sinless Son of God and who the Father has given the authority to judge ALL THINGS – the plain meaning seems to be that God inspired the human authors of the scripture to record what he wanted to convey to mankind, period. I don’t believe one could conclusively argue anything beyond that. This view leaves open the possibility that those same human authors interjected their thoughts amidst the pure thoughts of God – and when we find errors in the scripture, then this is the most reasonable view.

      Again, this passage does not define scripture, and it is virtually certain that what Paul had in view here was the Old Testament writings. Thus, this statement cannot reasonably be taken to refer to the New Testament writings. Nor can one derive from this verse precisely what manner God worked in inspiring the scriptures. For those who want to believe the three-Is, they should at least examine all of the scripture to try and come to conclusions regarding this question of what exactly is meant by the statement, “All scripture is given by inspiration of God”. And if errors are found in the scripture, then the clergymen’s view of inspiration, as cited above by Mr. Rhodes and Mr. Wade, ought to be rejected as false. This we have done, and thus we ought to reject the church men’s definition of “inspired” as well as the other I’s that are associated with that belief.

      Conclusions:

      This author’s current view of the scriptures and of the inspiration of the scriptures is as follows. The scriptures are synonymous with “the bible”. The Word of God is Jesus, NOT the bible or the scriptures. Jesus validated some of the utterances of the Old Testament prophets as being his Father’s thoughts, and what Jesus explicitly validates we can be sure were the Words of God prior to God’s sending the Final Word, which is His Son. The writings of those sent by Jesus can be considered scripture, and sometimes beneficial, but not authoritative or binding on the follower of Jesus. Paul was not a sent one, and his writings ought to be very carefully measured against Jesus’ as Paul contradicts some of Jesus’ most important teachings [See Are Paul’s Writings Faultless?]

      While the gospels contain the Words of The Word of God (Jesus of Nazareth), the rest of the teachings, observations and opinions of the authors of the scripture were written by imperfect men and only sometimes reflect God’s mind. We can only have full confidence in the Perfect One’s Words. The non-inspired thoughts of men were interjected into the scripture by two primary means. First, men subsequent to the original human authors, have interjected error by means of textual transmission (copying) and translation (original language to other languages). It appears most of this error has been unintentional, while some can be reasonably argued as intentional to push some religious or political agenda like the clergy power base. Second, error was also interjected into the scriptures by the original writers in as much as their flesh was not constantly submitted to God’s spirit while penning the scriptures [See Are Paul’s Writings Faultless?].

      The promised Messiah came, and he perfectly revealed the Father, and his Words and teachings are contained in the four gospel accounts. These direct teachings of his should be the only authoritative source of instruction for the disciple of Jesus. How can we be sure that Jesus’ Words were accurately captured and preserved? By faith in God and His mercy and by the Spirit bearing witness to the Truth that is Jesus and his Words. Those who trust in reason and historical or archeological facts on which to base their faith will not like this truth, for their “faith” is primarily intellectual ascent only based on material or historical facts. It is not contradictory to believe that God preserved His Son’s Words in the gospels, and that the words of the other authors of the bible are imperfect and not authoritative. You may not like this belief, but it is not contradictory, and it fits BEST with both Jesus’ OWN Words on this matter, as well as the fact that the bible has many contradictions, and it impugns God’s character.

      Another important distinction needs to be made. Jesus’ own Words are different than other’s words ABOUT him. Just as if you were write an auto-biography about your life, it would be more accurate than someone writing ABOUT your life, even if they were a close friend. It is quite possible for those who were with Jesus of Nazareth, to faithfully record his Words even while they did not fully understand them. In fact, Jesus promises this in John 14:26. It is equally possible for those who recorded Jesus’ Words to interject their own opinions about Jesus and his words and deeds. Thus, the safest place to base one’s faith is on the Person and Words of Jesus ONLY. The reader should be eager to do this and can find ample teachings of Jesus to justify doing so. Two examples can be found in Matt. 7 and Mark 13:31.

      This author believes another remarkable verification to the fact that the Father successfully preserved His Son’s writings is that the Son’s Words destroy the very bible-based religious system that was used to preserve them! Truly, we must have faith as a child to see the kingdom of God.

      This author’s intent is not to destroy people’s faith, which many will be quick to accuse. Rather, it is to free those who love the truth, ALL of the truth, to believe less error, find purer truth, and thus know God more perfectly. Jesus is the Truth, and the reader, if he or she is wise, will look no further than Jesus and his Words. Our faith will be built up in as much as we are obeying the Truth and are not clouded by error. As long as we are hanging onto false beliefs, Jesus will be both harder to find and harder to hear. This is particularly true if false beliefs we are hanging onto prejudices our view of the scripture, like the doctrine of the three I’s as proffered by the vast majority of churchianity’s clergymen.

      God does not want us to have faith in lies, errors, ignorance, the bible, the scriptures or facts about the bible. Rather, He wants us to have faith in Him and His glorious Son, Jesus the Messiah. Let us have faith in Him, and trust that He has preserved His Son’s Words to us in the gospels. Let us lose our lives for the Messiah who reveals himself in the gospels. Let us move forward into a life of faith in the Father and the Son, and thus a life of loving one another as His Family. If we do this, we will lose our lives in this world as a gratitude offering to Him.

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  7. Eliza says:

    As always a lot of highfalutin gymnastics to do what the devil does all the time, bring God’s word into disrepute. Thank you for stating categorically that we will not, gracealone1 and I, fall for your deception. The reason is simple we have the Holy Spirit indwelling us. Praise God for His mercy to us.

    1 Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits, whether they are of God; because many false prophets have gone out into the world. 2 By this you know the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is of God, 3 and every spirit that does not confess that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is not of God. And this is the spirit of the Antichrist, which you have heard was coming, and is now already in the world. 4 You are of God little children, and have overcome them, because He who is in you is greater than he who is in the world. 5 They are of the world. Therefore they speak as of the world, and the world hears them. 6 We are of God. he who know God hears us; He who is not of God does not hear us. By this we know the spirit of truth and the spirit of error. 1 John 4:1-6

    God’s Word is the witness to Jesus Christ, we either accept His Word or we don’t. If you discount God’s Word, His witness to His Son, then you are calling God a liar and you are not following His Son. Yes, Jesus Christ is God Almighty and we know Him experientially because He is not the Bible He is God. However, the Bible, God’s Word is the testimony regarding God’s Son, Jesus Christ, and if we don’t know Him as He is taught to us in the Scriptures then we don’t know Him at all.

    9 If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater; for this is the witness of God which He has testified of His Son. 10 He who believes in the Son of God has the witness in himself; he who does not believe God has made Him a liar, because he has not believed the testimony that God has given of His Son. 11 And this is the testimony: that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. 12 He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life. 1 John 5:9-11

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    • Eliza writes:

      “As always a lot of highfalutin gymnastics to do what the devil does all the time, bring God’s word into disrepute. Thank you for stating categorically that we will not, gracealone1 and I, fall for your deception. The reason is simple we have the Holy Spirit indwelling us. Praise God for His mercy to us.”

      Thanks again, Eliza, for equating us with the devil for putting Jesus first. ;0) It only further highlights these statements that Christ made:

      …10″Blessed are those who have been persecuted for the sake of righteousness, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. 11″Blessed are you when people insult you and persecute you, and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of Me. 12″Rejoice and be glad, for your reward in heaven is great; for in the same way they persecuted the prophets who were before you.”

      “Everyone will hate you because you are committed to Me. But the person who endures to the end will be saved.”

      “Blessed are you when people hate you, and when they exclude you and insult you and reject you as evil on account of the Son of Man!”

      One more thing, Eliza—did Jesus specifically say that the holy spirit would remind us of everything the BIBLE taught or everything that HE taught?

      Your answer will probably reveal a little more about where the holy spirit is actually dwelling in this exchange…

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  8. Eliza says:

    And it came to pass, that, as the people pressed upon him to hear the word of God, he stood by the lake of Gennesaret, Luke 5:1

    A sower went out to sow his seed: and as he sowed, some fell by the way side; and it was trodden down, and the fowls of the air devoured it. And some fell upon a rock; and as soon as it was sprung up, it withered away, because it lacked moisture. And some fell among thorns; and the thorns sprang up with it, and choked it. And other fell on good ground, and sprang up, and bare fruit an hundredfold. And when he had said these things, he cried, He that hath ears to hear, let him hear. And his disciples asked him, saying, What might this parable be? And he said, Unto you it is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God: but to others in parables; that seeing they might not see, and hearing they might not understand. Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God. Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away. And that which fell among thorns are they, which, when they have heard, go forth, and are choked with cares and riches and pleasures of this life, and bring no fruit to perfection. But that on the good ground are they, which in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, keep it, and bring forth fruit with patience. No man, when he hath lighted a candle, covers it with a vessel, or puts it under a bed; but sets it on a candlestick, that they which enter in may see the light. For nothing is secret, that shall not be made manifest; neither any thing hid, that shall not be known and come abroad. Take heed therefore how ye hear: for whosoever hath, to him shall be given; and whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken even that which he seems to have. Then came to him his mother and his brethren, and could not come at him for the press. And it was told him by certain which said, Thy mother and thy brethren stand without, desiring to see thee. And he answered and said unto them, My mother and my brethren are these which hear the word of God, and do it. Luke 8:5-21

    And it came to pass, as he spake these things, a certain woman of the company lifted up her voice, and said unto him, Blessed is the womb that bare thee, and the paps which thou hast sucked. But he said, Yea rather, blessed are they that hear the word of God, and keep it.
    Luke 11:27-28

    And when they bring you unto the synagogues, and unto magistrates, and powers, take ye no thought how or what thing ye shall answer, or what ye shall say: For the Holy Ghost shall teach you in the same hour what ye ought to say. Luke 12:11-12

    And the Pharisees also, who were covetous, heard all these things: and they derided him. And he said unto them, Ye are they which justify yourselves before men; but God knows your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God. The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presses into it. And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one tittle of the law to fail.
    Luke 16:14-17

    Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father’s house: For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment. Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent. And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead. Luke 16:27-31

    And Jesus answered and said unto them, For the hardness of your heart he wrote you this precept. But from the beginning of the creation God made them male and female. For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and cleave to his wife; And they twain shall be one flesh: so then they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder. Mark 10:5-9

    And he taught, saying unto them, Is it not written, My house shall be called of all nations the house of prayer? but ye have made it a den of thieves. And the scribes and chief priests heard it, and sought how they might destroy him: for they feared him, because all the people was astonished at his doctrine. Mark 11:17-18

    The Son of man indeed goes, as it is written of him: but woe to that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! good were it for that man if he had never been born. Mark 14:21

    And Jesus saith unto them, All ye shall be offended because of me this night: for it is written, I will smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered. But after that I am risen, I will go before you into Galilee. Mark 14:27-28

    And Jesus answered and said unto them, Are ye come out, as against a thief, with swords and with staves to take me? I was daily with you in the temple teaching, and ye took me not: but the scriptures must be fulfilled. Mark 14:48-49

    But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God. Matthew 4:4

    Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
    Matthew 5:17-19

    I have many things to say and to judge of you: but he that sent me is true; and I speak to the world those things which I have heard of him. They understood not that he spake to them of the Father. Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things. And he that sent me is with me: the Father hath not left me alone; for I do always those things that please him. John 8:26-29

    Believe thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwells in me, he does the works. Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works’ sake. John 14:10-11

    Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you. All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you.
    John 16:13-15

    If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken; Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemes; because I said, I am the Son of God? If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not. But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him. John 10:35-3)

    Your position is untenable. Jesus Christ’s own words prove that you are liars. Not only do you disregard God’s Word, the Bible, which by the way Jesus Christ condemns, but you also disregard much of what Jesus Christ said because you cherry pick what He taught to bolster your position. You labor much to lead astray as many as you can. The Lord Jesus Christ will Himself reprove you and bring you to account for your evil works because you are disputing with Him. Repent of this your evil work and if possible be reconciled to God!

    13 For this reason we also thank God without ceasing, because when you received the word of God which you heard from us, you welcomed it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which also effectively works in you who believe. 1 Thessalonians 2:13

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    • Eliza fires back with another round of hate that she directs at us for putting Jesus’ words above anything else in the bible:

      Your position is untenable. Jesus Christ’s own words prove that you are liars. Not only do you disregard God’s Word, the Bible, which by the way Jesus Christ condemns, but you also disregard much of what Jesus Christ said because you cherry pick what He taught to bolster your position. You labor much to lead astray as many as you can. The Lord Jesus Christ will Himself reprove you and bring you to account for your evil works because you are disputing with Him. Repent of this your evil work and if possible be reconciled to God!

      After many vague references that you believe support your position, Eliza, that Jesus own words/teachings are just as (in)significant as the rest of the whole bible, we fail to see how it is that you are convinced that God will throw us into the lake of fire for trying to bring more glory to Christ?

      You say we are “cherry-picking” Jesus’ teachings out of the 66 books that we now call the bible (which again, weren’t compiled at the time of Jesus walking the earth). GUILTY AS CHARGED! =O) But let’s be clear that we are guilty of lifting those direct teachings from the 4 gospels and elevating them to their entirely worthy position, since they are LITERALLY “every word that proceeds from the mouth of God”.

      You say we are leading people astray…from the bible! GUILTY AGAIN! Dang it Eliza, you sure are a clever one! 😉 While it’s true that we could be technically guilty of leading people away from bible worship, I think it would be more accurate to say that we’re the ones in this debate who are trying desperately to lead them away from the bible…and right back to Jesus himself.

      According to the bible itself “all authority on heaven and earth was given to the Son of man”, and that He ALONE is the light of the world, as well as holding the “words of eternal life” that no one else could say of themselves or even of a holy book.

      So we’ll take our chances and even “punishment” for TRYING to lead people to sit at the feet of the one they call “lord, lord”, to learn from and hopefully obey beyond ANY man/woman or book.

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  9. Another interesting thing to point out is that Eliza is quoting verse after verse to us, (thankfully using more of Jesus’ own words this time) but then out of nowhere she adds her own shot at us, as seen in our quoting of her last comment.

    While it could just be that that is the way she speaks/writes, it comes across as if she may feel that some of her words on are on par with other bible writers. It’s almost as if she could add “Eliza 5:32” after her tirades against us.

    Aside from all this, the passages from the gospels which she quoted don’t do ANYTHING for her case against us. Can anyone else get a picture of what she is hoping to accomplish by stringing together “cherry-picked” quotes from the gospels?

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  10. Eliza says:

    No, I’m just replying to your heresy on the authority of Christ’s Word. Since you refuse to submit to His Word then you are not one of His disciples. You are false,

    47 He who is of God hears God’s words; therefore you do not hear because you are not of God. John 8:47

    Jesus Christ will Himself reprove you unless you repent.

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  11. one says:

    Ok Eliza,

    You have made your point, and called us a lot of hurtful names in the process. Maybe you should get back to laying at the feet of the bible, (oops), I mean Jesus.

    Don’t worry though, as most people will side with you in this debate. We aren’t here to endlessly debate people who are diametrically opposed to what we are saying here. We do believe engaging in some positive debate about these eternal issues, but when people resort to name calling, we feel any constructive dialogue has come to a grinding halt.

    For those looking on and reading this, hopefully they can see that we’ve tried to be loving and semi-cordial and patient, but the favor has not been returned. Sadly, this harsh treatment we receive from so-called “christians” is the same kind of treatment that turns so many away from Jesus/God.

    It’s typically been our experience that atheists and agnostics are more open to hearing what we say than those who are steeped in churchy traditions, like the “Word of God” doctrine that we have seen cause so many sparks to fly.

    In conclusion, the Word of God doctrine is the position that Eliza holds, just like most of the church world. The 66 books of the Bible are all “The Word of God.” Our position is that JESUS CHRIST is THE WORD OF GOD (John 1:1; Revelation 19:13) and that His clear and direct teachings in the four Gospels are not to be put on par with any other teachings in the entire bible.

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